Models for WIPs? - discussion thread.

I didn't even know how the search bar worked until yesterday and I've been on here a long long time.

Same here. I just figured it out bc I'm honestly not as cunning or intelligent as everyone who knows about it.

Same here. I just figured it out bc I'm honestly not as cunning or intelligent as everyone who knows about it.

Finding and figuring out a search bar isn't a gauge of that. c: At least I don't think it is.

I'll concede the search bar point, although I still think it could be put in some guide or another. It's silly to have a feature we don't use (also, it's great for finding answers to jeopardy questions >>)

1. I agree that there should be names put in every sandbox, but again, I feel like we should just go with the list.
2. No one said that. But we are saying that the slow writers aren't doing it wrong either and shouldn't be "judged."
3. I'm really confused about this. First you said you would rather avoid the confrontation if someone else already had an idea for that model, and now you're saying you encourage people to challenge you for your faces. It seems odd to me--imagine if you were on the other side and you were someone who'd had an idea with that face for a long time and some random person came in and took it. Wouldn't you prefer not to have to be the one to change it?
4. Again, rules can only detail so much. Respect details the rest.
5. Not a problem. I'm not actually mad about this. You'll probably reach a point eventually where you can resolve most issues before you send a character in.
7. I don't know the details, but I'm just saying that sometimes faces can be a big deal to the driver. That's all I attempted to say with that point.

MH is not something we expect people to catch on to in a week. But by posting the other side to some of your points, I was just trying to show that there are some other nuances to the issue that you may not have thought about. No one is saying you don't belong here or anything.

Edit: I don't want this to turn into a completely different discussion, so I am going to bow out for the remainder. I think I've given all the opinions I have on the pertinent issue, which is what to do about WIP models.

I'll concede the search bar point, although I still think it could be put in some guide or another. It's silly to have a feature we don't use.

1. I agree that there should be names put in every sandbox, but again, I feel like we should just go with the list.
2. No one said that. But we are saying that the slow writers aren't doing it wrong either.
3. I'm really confused about this. First you said you would rather avoid the confrontation if someone else already had an idea for that model, and now you're saying you encourage people to challenge you for your faces. It seems odd to me--imagine if you were on the other side and you were someone who'd had an idea with that face for a long time and some random person came in and took it. Wouldn't you prefer not to have to be the one to change it?
4. Again, rules can only detail so much. Respect details the rest.
5. Not a problem. I'm not actually mad about this. You'll probably reach a point eventually where you can resolve most issues before you send a character in.
7. I don't know the details, but I'm just saying that sometimes faces can be a big deal to the driver. That's all I attempted to say with that point.

MH is not something we expect people to catch on to in a week. But by posting the other side to some of your points, I was just trying to show that there are some other nuances to the issue that you may not have thought about.

What I was trying to say in respect to the third point was that I would encourage the challenging of my own face claim simply because I am not a fan of unwritten rules or bending them in any way. A rule is a rule. And I know the rules, so no, I wouldn't throw a fit if someone took a face I'd been working on. I'd find another. Which, in my own personal case, is precisely what I did, and I only debated keeping it because I felt that I had a right to stick up for myself, and because I felt the threat of having half of a board feel a certain way about my personal character. Which is wrong.

This discussion wasn't supposed to be about character. It was supposed to be about opinions about a reserve system.

Not everything on this website needs to get turned into an argument. We've made our points, there's no need to go at each other for personal poo poo.

This discussion wasn't supposed to be about character. It was supposed to be about opinions about a reserve system.

Not everything on this website needs to get turned into an argument. We've made our points, there's no need to go at each other for personal poo poo.

Yes. Sorry folks, I got a little out of line. Bridget, I sent you a PM. Sorry for being a little harsh.

Wow - I go out for the evening and look at this! XD

I've briefly read through everyone's suggestions and it looks like...um...there's a lot of different opinons out there! I'm not around much this weekend (nor are half the team xD) but we'll certainly be seeing how we can make things clearer for folks once the weekend is past!

<333

The search bar is often a pain to use, and will be worse if more people use it regularly because it's such a resource hog, as it has to run through the entire database each time you run a query. Compared to other sites, MH is quite overwhelming with it's subforums and sheer number of topics. That's why for anyone who has used it regularly, you'd notice there's a time limit placed on running several queries, which is annoying if you're looking for several model names in succession. It's not a great solution for this. I also don't expect new drivers to spend their time knowing the ins and out of the forum software. People join to roleplay, and for that, as long as they know where the New Topic and Post buttons are, they're good to go.

If we're establishing the reserve system, then I agree that a month (may be two at most) should be the limit, and only one reservation per driver. For someone who just wants to make a character and play, the Sandbox is daunting to go through so having a list would definitely help with this. I don't know how I feel about a renewal. That sort of defeats the purpose of having time limits in the first place.

If there are WIP claims disputes, such as an expired claim or other, I'd favour giving priority to the one with the character that will actually be sorted faster. I understand many of us who've been here for a while have more responsibilities and time constraints as we've grown up, but giving new members a more pleasant transition to being active on the boards is much better for the growth and dynamic of MH imho.

- Model reserve list... Eh. I'm a busy bee IRL and sheets take me a few months. I'm not saying I can suggest a better alternative, I'm just not hot on that idea. I'm about to start A Levels with assessed exams every 6 weeks, so maybe I'm not hot on it purely bc it just wouldn't work for me personally.

- I list models I hope to use in my sandbox. Not because I facehoard, please please please don't see it like that - it's a personal reminder because every time I pull up a sheet to work on I google that model again and have the face open in another tab. Just something that gives me muse. It's really just an added bonus that it means the models I hope to use show up in the search function. Of course searching can be a snail's pace thing esp. if you're looking at many potential models so honestly I just normally ask around lots to see if anyone knows of a driver actively working on a sheet using that model. Model searching is half finding a shortlist of appropriate people and half then finding someone on that shortlist that is free.

- The courtesy system has thankfully always worked for me, people have been wonderful and understanding and I always offer to help them search for someone with as similar features as possible. That said... There really is no enforcing the courtesy rule. One day I will probably fire someone a quick message and they'll turn around and say no. I get that. And on that occasion I will probably do my best to sprint-write the sheet if I want the model badly enough.

As a new member to MH, I had no idea about this courtesy system on models when I first joined. All I knew was what the New Player Guide and Character Creation Guide said and all there was about models was the model list. So with Guin, I was super excited to see that Scarlett Johannsson wasn't taken- I put her up in my sandbox and with absolutely no intent to cause any drama- in reality she really was taken and no one told me why but instead had hinted around that I should change my model rather than up front telling me that I was stealing Scarlejo- I only found out when Helena informed me and suggested that I pm the driver. It was already really uncomfortable, especially being new and I really didn't want to escalate the tention. So I just changed my model although I had finished her looks section- I just had to revised it. But yeah, it really was a bummer to have that as my first experience here o_o;

I think a thread similar to the Adoptions thread would be awesome and especially for new members so they're informed on this experienced MHer phenomenon that is subtley claiming models :p

I like this idea too, don't get me wrong.
However...it's still basically a model claim.
What is going to be able to negate the drama that would come if a person uses a model on that list without caring about someone claiming them?

The difference between this list and the model claim is that the list is changeable and not absolute. Yes, anyone can use a model that someone else is planning on using. Unlike the official model list, where no one is allowed to use a model someone else is using. However, you can, but that does not necessarily mean that you should. I think that it's important that we allow the site members a deal of respect and kindness.  No matter if the rules say that you are able to use a model, drivers should care about the feelings of the other people involved. They should care to ask.

If they don't care about that, then the problem goes a lot deeper than anything a rule could solve. The driver simply does not care about the feelings of other drivers, and do you really want to thread with people who would be so rude to someone else? MH is a socially-oriented site. If we take the social aspects out of the way we deal with other people, we will lose all sembance of respect and compassion that we have. It is exactly when we value rules over people that society starts to fall apart. There needs to be a balance. If someone chooses to use a model someone else is using, when the person originally using is actively making progress on their sheet and clearly intending character creation, then I believe that they fully deserve the social consequences that come from that. It's not against the rules and no-one is going to run to the admins and cry, because they can't do anything about it, but it's more than enough of a reason to not like someone. It's not a nice thing for a person to do. I suppose a choice to ostracize one's self is one's own prerogative.

So, basically, there's nothing about it to negate the drama. Doing that over-all is creating drama, and the person deserves the consequences. They may not be hated forever, and eventually people would get over it... but it's not nice, and people should look at people who do it as not nice people. I think that this is absolutely vital to a social site functioning. It will be the end of courtesy on MH if we can be discourteous and then hide behind rules as the reason why. It's not always easy to be polite to people, but it's expected on a site like this. No one comes here to be mean and hurt people's feelings. I don't see why we need rules that make it easier to do so.

I didn't read a lot of these because I have to leave for the weekend soon, but I figured I'd just throw my two cents in here since this issue has affected me personally.

1. As a new member, if I had simply seen even a list of face claims people were working on (maybe parallel to a face claim list, I dunno) while I was doing my model search, rather than having to go through every single sandbox to hope that I didn't miss the one that I wanted to use because it's on the tenth page of your sandbox amid discussion about fairies and plot ideas and what-have-you, I would not use that face. Even if it says in big bold letters "THIS IS NOT A CLAIM". Because I would personally like to avoid that conflict. I wouldn't have to get pissed off and throw chairs at the walls of my house. I mean, even if there's no reserve system, as a new player getting that for reference, I would get the respect system, rather than having to plan a character out in my head, be excited as shit because it's a great face and it's not on the face claim list, and be disappointed when someone shows up and stakes an unwritten claim over said face. That's annoying.
2. If you're working on eight different WIPs and you have face claims on there for all of them, I'm judging you. Literally. Like, I understand you're "working" on all of them, but come on. You're face hoarding, especially when you expect me to automatically give them up to you when you might not finish them for two years.
3. I personally had half a mind to take all models off of my wip list, simply because i wouldn't want someone else to think that they didn't have the opportunity to challenge me on a face claim. It hasn't happened yet, but I'm sure it eventually will. And I'm sure I'll let them have them.
4. I don't see how it could be a disrespect to someone to take their face claims because, in all honesty, taking claim over a face you're not finished with is a disrespect on the face claim rule which specifically says "2. Do not post a claim if you are not sorted.". Don't tell me that I'm stepping on your toes and don't tell me I'm disrespecting you because there is no rule that I can't give you friendly competition.
5. I personally think that taking three nights to write up a sheet (I'm a fast writer, personally) does not make them of lesser quality of someone who takes a year. You could take fourty years and you'll probably still get pended for something. It's never going to be perfect.
6. If we allow the claim of one face, who says that if someone takes another one of the eight faces you're working on, you won't hate them and threaten to tell everyone you know about it. Or talk shit about them to everyone you can. I'm not sure.
7. I don't see what the big obsession with getting one face is. There's someone else out there that will fit the description of your character, even if you're completely done with the sheet, and there's someone out there just as pretty.

All of this being said, I think that what I would suggest would be a list for reference. And not harassing someone if they take it anyway. I personally wouldn't because I know what the outlined rules are, and I abide by them. That being said, as I've said before, if it's obvious to me that someone is working on that face that I can reference while looking for a face, there would be no conflict. With this system (the "courtesy" one), however, the only drama that can be sparked is a result of someone getting possessive over a face they have no legitimate claim over. And by legitimate, I mean by rule somewhere.

EDIT: I also wanted to point out that this issue is one that may affect mostly (if not only) new drivers. Older ones have the time and know-how to go through everyone's sandbox (or know them by memory after having previously looked) to make sure their face isn't already being worked on. As many of you haven't been "new"for quite some time, you might not remember how it felt.

1. I fully understand this concern. At looking at the current system, I can see where it's difficult to see who's working on which character with what model. As a member who's been around for awhile, I have the luxury of knowing a lot of other people's WIPs... but things like that pass me by, personally, every now and then. This is a very valid point. This is the reason why I'm suggesting the listing. It will put all of that information in one place where people can easily search and see what's going on. If they see a character there and can't find them in the sandbox, they can always PM the driver and ask "Hey, I saw that you were planning to use x model for y character, but I don't see anything about y in your sandbox. Are you still planning on using x?"

However, this becomes a less valid argument when, the moment a member posts in the sandbox, they see a message that a driver is using a particular model for a character. This frequently happens, because established members do tend to know other people's WIPs. When effort is made to inform a driver that the model is being used, the argument about "not knowing" becomes invalid. Once someone tells you, you know, and then it's on you to decide if you want to be respectful of the other person or not. If you choose to do it anyway, it's a personal insult to the driver. You can, of course. No one will stop you, but it goes back to the question of whether or not you should.


2. As far as this point, I understand the thought behind it, but not all WIPs are being actively worked on. I have seven WIPs in my sandbox right now, and all of them have models. Of those characters, I am only actively working on two of them: John and Felicia. The others may have models that inspire me for them (model hunting is a large part of character creation for me, personally), but if someone else wanted to use them, I would probably let them have them. A few days ago, I gave Misha Collins to Fee to use as a character model for one of her WIPs. I had picked him out for my character, but I wasn't doing anything about the character. So, I gave him up. Posing a picture of the character is not entirely enough to claim, I agree. There needs to be progress. Slow or fast, progress is key. When you've seen that someone has just posted a character idea, however, or they've edited the post within the past few weeks, that shows progress. When in doubt, though, you can always ask the driver.

3 &4. I have given away more than a few WIP models. I don't expect others to give away models they're currently working on, however. I think there needs to be some sort of respect of other members. It should never be a race to the sorting hat. That's not fun for anyone, and it's not nice. All it is is pressure. As far as "Do not post a claim if you are not sorted" relates specifically to the official model claim. That list is not for WIPs. That list is for played characters. The unofficial nature of WIPs makes an "official" list nearly impossible to manage. This is why I feel an informal list is better.

I don't understand how you could not see it as disrespectful to another person to know that they are intending to do something, so you rush to do it before them so that they cannot do it. This, like I said, is a social site. It's about everyone having a good time and making friends. Being rude has no place here.

5. I'm not trying to say that writing a quick sheet is necessarily lesser quality. I'm saying that time limits will encourage slower writers to 'cut corners' in their sheet and rush to get them sorted. You can write a good sheet in a short amount of time, that's true. Quick writing is good. Rushed writing is not good.

6. As I said before, not every single WIP with a model in their sheet is a 'claim.' I actually hate the use of the word claim for this, but I'll go ahead with it anyway. The key is progress. When a person is making progress on a sheet, or when they've touched it a few days ago, or a week, or even a few months imo... it's clear that the intent to make that character is still there. A member should respect their fellow members enough to listen to it.

I don't know where you heard about anyone 'threatening' to 'talk shit' about any members, but I think it's expected that in delicate situations like that that other people will notice the injustice and react accordingly. It's uncommon that someone wants to thread/plot with someone who doesn't respect other members or who intentionally starts trouble. That's not a threat. That's a fact. However, I believe that if you or anyone else is afraid for other people to know what you did/said, then you should not have done or said them. I am a very upfront person. I say how I feel and will always be happy to explain my decisions and opinions because I don't act unless I believe that I am doing the right thing. I stand by my choices and apologize when I feel I may have acted incorrectly. If a person is afraid of other people's responses to their actions, they should rethink their actions.

7.  I can agree with this to a degree. For me, the character model is an important part of character development. Rarely, the model proceeds the character. However, the face is not the most important. However, the respect is. It is not about the face in these discussions. It's about the unnecessary malice behind the intention.

Revising my post because SERIOUSLY, it made no sense.

I'm a newbie. When I created my first character, I didn't even think to search the Sandbox for possible WIPs. All I knew (as was stated before from other new members), was the official model claim. I just thought that's how it was done at MH. I've been on other RP sites where you can claim a model while you work on your sheet. To each site, his/her own. Fair enough.
(And I have since learned that I STOLE someone's WIP for my first character, which I feel terrible about, and had no idea I had done it. I suck!)

I agree that the search engine might be the best way to go? If you let new members know about WIPs then they can search. I just think that any unofficial list, however unofficial, would feel official. If I care enough about a model to post in the list, I want to keep them. So it's as good as an official list, IMO. But a quick note to newbies to search the Sandbox, and contact any potential issues, I think that would be great (and personal good story, because of this thread, I searched  the Sandbox, and found that someone had a WIP with the model I was planning to use. PMed said person, and they were very sweet and agreed that I could use the model. No drama. I just needed the small heads up!)

This post probably still doesn't make sense. Ah, well. I tried.

I haven't read everything in detail but here is my opinion based on experiences.

1. I was working on a WIP for MONTHS and I had Richard Madden as the face claim/model whatever, but then I was alerted to Lauren also wanting to make a character with Richard.  I admit I freaked out and I even went so far as to see when she posted the sheet compared to when I started working on mine, but then I took a deep breath, calmed down, and just PMd Lauren and asked about sharing.  She was fine with it. In the end I didn't even end up using Richard, I chose Henry Cavill instead because I personally decided I didn't want to share, but who am I to tell Lauren she can't use a model just because I want to and my sheet was started first? So, in the end it worked out fine. I just found someone new.

2. When I saw Miki's new character Tinny, I also nearly died because she was using Sophie Turner, who I had for a WIP. This time I just thought: "Well, I didn't finish her in time, I didn't even have most of her sheet done." so I just gave a set I had made to Miki and left it at that.

So, from the above what I'm saying is, yes models are important to me, but they are not the be all and end all -- and if they were the only reason you were making that character then that's a poor character because I've had enough chars to know I will never make one just for the model again.

I can, however, see how some models just SUIT a character so well that the need for some kind of list might be useful.  e.g. tattooed, pierced, fancy hair colours, etc.etc.

My suggestion would be firstly to get the Official Model List running smoothly and up to date.  I think it shouldn't be a 3 month claim, but instead:

1. When a character is deleted you also remove their name from the list, just like how the Gringott's account is linked etc.

2. Canon models cannot be claimed by a non-canon. (e.g. you can't claim Emma Watson unless you are Hermione)

3. If the character who has been claimed has not been actively posted (in a RP scenario, not OOC) in the last 6 months, you may steal the claim at admin discretion (just in case that driver is ill/etc. and has given a valid reason for not rping).

Correct me if I'm wrong, I just think that system will work a little fairer and save work by not having to update the list every time 3 months rolls around, and I think it still allows for people being ill etc.

A WIP-Claim should I think simply be a topic where people post:

"Hi I'm Lowri, my sandbox is here (link), and I am planning on using Nastassia Lindes for my character Tansy Trickett."

I think if you haven't completed at least 30% of the sheet you shouldn't be allowed to claim.  For example in my box I have three other WIPs, but I wouldn't claim their models (as much as I'd want to!) because I haven't written enough of their sheet.  I suppose we could have two categories, such as PLANNING TO USE and THINKING OF USING, whereby my other wips could go in the second category, and if two drivers have the same model, they just PM each other and work it out?

SORRY THIS WAS SO LONG I GOT CARRIED AWAY. D:

I actually like the 3 month rule as it stands, just because most of the time when models are reclaimed by different people, it's when the driver is completely inactive or they had like one character and never came back. If the driver's active and plans to keep using the model, then it's renewed on the list.

I don't think it's fair to keep a model if you're not even around, unless, like you said, there's a good reason and you haven't been gone too long.

2. Canon models cannot be claimed by a non-canon. (e.g. you can't claim Emma Watson unless you are Hermione)

I think it's this way right now? Unless I'm crazy. xD

I suppose 3 months works too? I don't know I just figured 6 months gives a kind of grieving period haha? I don't know. Whichever works ^^

And yes the canon rule is currently in place xD I was just mentioning it as part of my little ideas for rules, like.. those were some points i think are important.

and Miki! Don't feel bad about using Sophie at all! I really had like hardly any of the sheet done and it was going nowhere hahaha! If I had really wanted to use Sophie I would have contacted you about it<33!